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Unixronin

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Saturday, December 6th, 2008 10:22 pm

In the interview in the January 2009 issue of Discover Magazine, Stanford's Professor Robert Proctor (who teaches the history of science) submits creationists' rejection of the Piltdown hoax as an example of good science coming from a strong, although incorrect, ideology.  I submit that he is flatly wrong in, at the least, his choice of example.

Yes, creationists rejected the Piltdown skull as a fraud.  They also rejected, and continue to reject, every other piece of data and scientific theory that contradicts their dogma that the Universe was created in seven days by divine fiat six thousand and twelve years ago.  The mere fact that in the Piltdown case, they happened by sheer luck to be right that it was a fraud, doesn't make their rejection good science; in fact, it doesn't make it any kind of science at all, because their denial was based on dogma, not on scientific method.  Their judgement on the Piltdown skull was made not for scientific, or even non-scientific reasons, but for actively anti-scientific reasons.  It contradicted their dogma, and their dogma was by their definition unquestionably right, therefore the Piltdown skull was automatically and necessarily a fraud.  It was not the "missing link" because, to them, no missing link could possibly exist.

Being right by sheer blind chance, one time in a hundred, for totally the wrong reasons, can't be good science — because it isn't science in the first place.

Sunday, December 7th, 2008 05:17 am (UTC)
I believe in creationism. In my version, about 14 billion years ago, the heavens were created. After about 9 billion years, enough matter had been fused out of Hydrogen for G-d to create the earth. When the earth had been prepared, man was introduced. I have yet to find any scientific facts, that have not been proven hoaxes, that contradict my theology in any way. There is nothing in the Bible that contradicts that account. There are people that do not understand the Bible, that have come up with theories of what the Bible "must mean", but they do not have to be correct. (They frequently are incorrect.) Setting up interpretations on what G-d really meant leaves people scurrying for the edges of knowledge when revealed truth shines a light on their false assumptions. (Kind of like cockroaches.) I love the sciences teaching me how G-d does things. Not all Christians have the stinted understanding you attribute to them.
Sunday, December 7th, 2008 05:35 am (UTC)
I can best be described as a Christian agnostic, or as an agnostic Christian. I have far too many collisions of belief with the laity (but, strangely, not with theologians!) to ever feel I can honestly claim to share a belief structure with them. At the same time, though, the Episcopal Church has never kicked me out and has, in fact, been quite kind to me at times. They understand I don't subscribe to the entire Nicene Creed. They don't ask me to; they just ask me to keep an open mind and heart.

I can do that. And for that, I have no qualms about describing myself as a Christian agnostic.

One of the things I especially love about Episcopalianism is its belief in triune dogma (and I don't mean dogma about the Trinity). In Episcopalianism, dogma must be supported by Scripture, by tradition, and by reason. If any piece of dogma fails on any of these three, it is considered suspect and not required belief of followers.
Sunday, December 7th, 2008 03:44 pm (UTC)
We don't use creeds at all. Neither as stepping stones or stumbling blocks. Reason can, and should, be applied to beliefs. I can take or leave tradition. Just because we have always done it, is not a valid reason to continue doing it. (Neither is doing it because it is new.) Here, multiple viewpoints can help clarify goals and impacts. Scripture should allow G-d room to speak symbolically, with room to apply instruction and teaching to ourselves. (I have real problems applying G-d's instructions to others, it creates a huge mess of bad feeling, and I won't go near the restriction of liberty.) I'll shut up now. People have tendencies. Not all religion is opposed to science, or social progress.
Sunday, December 7th, 2008 06:28 pm (UTC)
In Episcopalianism, dogma must be supported by Scripture, by tradition, and by reason. If any piece of dogma fails on any of these three, it is considered suspect and not required belief of followers.
How astoundingly ... reasonable.
Monday, December 8th, 2008 08:12 am (UTC)
That's why there are so many Anglicans who don't believe in God.
Tuesday, December 9th, 2008 01:21 am (UTC)
There's a fairly strong theological argument that says exactly this. The overwhelming majority of Christians say "God exists." Now, separate all things into two sets: those that exist and those that don't. Not only does God get placed into a set larger than God is, but the set God is placed into is the smaller of the two sets. This is clearly contradictory: if God exists procol his, God cannot be pigeonholed so neatly.

The great 20th century theologian Paul Tillich went so far as to say that no truly faithful Christian could ever assert the existence of God: that to assert God's existence was a slander to God's majesty. In Tillich's view, the proper Christian creed is not "God exists," but simply "God?"; the replacing of a declarative statement to our fellow man with a personal invitation to our Creator for a conversation.

I can't say as how I agree with Tillich wholeheartedly, but I do think that theologically speaking he raises some excellent points.
Tuesday, December 9th, 2008 02:13 am (UTC)
That is, indeed, a thought-provoking point.

I'm minded to quote Jethro Tull:
I don't believe you, you've got the whole damn thing all wrong
He's not the kind you have to wind up on Sundays...
Sunday, December 7th, 2008 06:50 pm (UTC)
I think one of my problems with creationism is that even interpretations such as this, while they don't actually contradict any scientific knowledge, neither do they add anything except questions to which the usual response is either accusations of blasphemy or mutterings about Things Man Was Not Meant To Know.

There's a greater problem, though, and I submit that it falls to Ockham's razor:

The world is full of creation myths, almost all of them incompatible, and almost all of which assert that they are the one truth and all others are false and heretical. In general, out of N faiths in the world, there are approximately N incompatible creation myths, for each of which n faiths assert its truth and N - n faiths deny it, where n is small compared to N. Further, in general they each assert that their version of events is not subject to logical proof or scientific verification, and must be taken solely on faith, even when they contradict scientific evidence and established theory.
The simplest and most obvious conclusion is that it is overwhelmingly likely that all of them are false.
Monday, December 8th, 2008 01:47 am (UTC)
I have spent some time comparing creation myths. There are so many common elements that I believe that they all come from a common root.

There are elements of science that can be profitably advanced by the application of religious writings. It is the religious supposings and creeds that are the problem.

I think your anti-religion hat is on too tight. There are some groups that still claim the earth is flat. They do not do so for religious reasons. You will have reactions against science theories from many sources, for many reasons, singling our religion as the only culprit does not acknowledge the entire set of resistance.