bcholmes | Racism isn't just "a card" some people "play"

Blaming people of color for Prop. 8 passing in California is racist. So cut it the fuck out. Ditto for veiling your racism with "this is because of turnout for Obama" or "you know how conservative those immigrants can be."

sparkymonster states one of those things that I wanted to believe was obvious, but which apparently is not.

Edit: Here's another good response to the "let's blame the brown people" phenomenon.

Edit the second: Here's a statistical analysis of a white election.

Edit the third: Daily Kos has a good analysis, too!

Flat | Top-Level Comments Only

From:

xthlcm.livejournal.com

So wait, race had nothing to do with Prop 8 passing, but then everyone in that post complains that we should have done more outreach to racial minorities?

sparkymonster's map is pointless because we're not talking about county-level correlations, we're talking about ethnic ones. The stats given on the percentages of African- and Hispanic-Americans among California's population are important, but also not terribly relevant, because they don't reflect the actual voter turnout on Tuesday. Given the margin by which Prop 8 passed and the overwhelming ratios of support among Latinos and blacks, it's almost certain that Prop 8 passed due to those differentials.

From the NYTimes: (http://www.nytimes.com/2008/11/06/us/politics/06marriage.html?scp=2&sq=Proposition%208&st=cse)

Frank Schubert, the campaign manager for Protect Marriage, the leading group behind Proposition 8, agreed that minority votes had put the measure over the top, saying that a strategy of working with conservative black pastors and community leaders had paid off.

“It’s a big reason why we won, no doubt about it,” he said.

I know talking about race gives liberals palpitations, but the fact is that this is a racial problem -- racial in that icky Deep Southern way that Californians like to pretend doesn't exist in their state. Maybe it sounds better if I say that Prop 8 passed due to a complex of cultural and social structures in play that are strongly correlated with both ethnic background and homophobic attitudes.

Unless we're willing to directly tackle race in a way that is simultaneously realistic and respectful (I'm thinking about the Obama campaign's targeted outreach programs that focused on issues and arguments that were of import to specific racial groups), we're never going to get past that brown, socially conservative roadblock. sparkymonster's awkward scolding is exactly the sort of liberal head-in-the-sand attitude towards race that caused us to lose.

From:

bcholmes.livejournal.com

So wait, race had nothing to do with Prop 8 passing, but then everyone in that post complains that we should have done more outreach to racial minorities?

The "race had nothing to do" phrase is your phrase, not mine. And it is, in my opinion, a shell game. I'm not saying "you can't mention race"; I'm saying "there are racist ways of having this conversation and non-racist ways of having this conversation, and the kind of blame that's been going around blogs has been pretty racist."

I believe that it is valuable to take note of the statistics around various communities and demographics. What one makes of those observations is the crux of the issue. I think there's a difference between saying:

"Approximately 70% of the African-American community voted for Prop 8."

and

"Now that he's been elected, Obama must take immediate action to make up for the 70% of African-Americans who voted for Prop 8."

And, to be clear, I've read things that look like the latter statement far too often in the last 24 hours.

I think it's meaningful to take stock of the situation and make conclusions like:

- "we need better outreach to African-American groups"; or

- "maybe we need to do some active campaigning centered on black communities"; or

- "I should do more volunteering or donations to groups like the National Black Justice Coalition, who are already trying to change these attitudes and communities".

All of those suggestions dare to acknowledge race, but they're very different than "I can't believe I voted for Obama and yet black people chose to screw me over". As if he's somehow responsible for all African-Americans everywhere.

From:

griffen.livejournal.com

Obama better take it up because he's going to be President, not because a group he's a member of acted in a homophobic, hateful, bigoted way.

But he still better take it up. If he doesn't, he will not get my vote in 2012.

I'm tired of sitting in the back of the bus.

From:

sparkymonster.livejournal.com

FYI Obama has already stated he was against Prop. 8.

Also, while we're on the condemning an entire group of people train, if you're a white person you're a member of a group that acted in a homophobic, hateful way. Bill Clinton, who is white, signed DOMA into law. Also, the person who assassinated Harvey Milk was white. Ditto for the people who killed Matthew Shepard.

From:

griffen.livejournal.com

He didn't do it soon enough, and he didn't do it in a timely fashion. His voice saying "I think marriage is one man, one woman" was put on Yes on 8 robocalls on November 4th and disseminated to people all over the state. He didn't do enough, yes I absolutelyblame him for his milquetoast, wishy-washy statements, and don't you dare call me a racist for being pissed off at him.

Got it? I don't want to hear any apologists trying to excuse ANY community that participated in stripping me of my rights - black, white, purple, green, religious or not, conservative or not. I blame EVERYONE who stripped me of my rights. I will not take it back. And it doesn't make me racist to blame people who have hurt me.

From:

sparkymonster.livejournal.com

Obama came out against Prop. 8 in July when he said "I oppose the divisive and discriminatory efforts to amend the California Constitution, and similar efforts to amend the U.S. Constitution or those of other states," Yes robocalls did exist that lied about Obama's views. How is that the fault of African-American people? Shouldn't that actually be the fault of the people who paid for those calls, which were funded by the mostly white LDS church?

And it doesn't make me racist to blame people who have hurt me.

You are assigning blame to an entire racial group based on the actions of a small group of people. You're ignoring the existence of black LGBT people and allies. You're ignoring that the NAACP of CA came out against Prop. 8. If you are blaming black people for Prop. 8, casting that blame is a racist action.

From:

griffen.livejournal.com

Gee. He came out in JULY, long before the attack ads hit the air. His statement needed to be repeated. Often. And loudly. And it wasn't. And that is his fault and the fault of his campaign. And I blame them for it, because it probably would have made a real difference in the outcome.

Do I blame all blacks? No. Do I blame the blacks that voted against my rights? Absolutely. I want to hurt them the same way they hurt me.

Do I blame all Mormons? No, although I'm sorely tempted to because all Mormons are required by their church to support its actions through their monetary outlay. But do I blame the Mormons who took aim at me and fired their bigotry through the television sets and the airwaves and the radio? Absolutely. Do I blame the Mormons who voted to strip me of my rights? Absolutely. I want to hurt them the same way they hurt me.

Please fill in any other group that voted against me. I do not hate the group. I do, however, passionately hate all the members of it who voted to take away my rights. And I want them to be hurt the same way I was.

I blame Obama for saying something that could be used in robocalls against my rights. I also blame Gavin Newsom for saying something that was used in advertisements against my rights.

And it is not racist to be angry at the people who did this shit to me. So don't go there again. And stop excusing their actions.

From:

firecat

For what it's worth, I understand that Obama and Clinton (not sure if Bill or Hillary) created a robocall opposing prop 8. I didn't hear it (I hang up on all robocalls) but someone I know did.

So apparently Obama did try to oppose Prop 8. I think it's wrong to blame him for not doing more - he did need to campaign for the presidency after all.

From:

kat-chan.livejournal.com

The ones that bother me are the ones who blame blacks for Prop 8 passing and then a) suggest that their vote should have been suppressed since Obama would have won anyhow or b) that "any right-minded minoritld understand...".

A would be a complete non-starter and horribly anti-democratic. Everyone should be allowed to have their voice heard, no matter how much you disagree with their vote. B is usually an indicator of just how little someone has interacted with minorities. After all, the premise is that you know better than someone else what their experiences should lead them to believe, and that your opinions on discrimination are more valid than theirs. Granted, it frustrates me when I hear blacks consistantly talk about gays as if they're sub-human simply because of the irony of it all. But that doesn't mean they're not in their right mind. It simply means that we have different views, and it's up to me to take part in a dialogue and attempt to persuade them towards my point of view.

I'm sick of white people who try and behave as if their opinions and thought processes are more valid than other peoples' and that any deviation is some sort of mental shortcoming.

From:

sparkymonster.livejournal.com

I think

bcholmes comment below sums up my responses well.

I'd add two things. One is that the reason LGBT groups should engage in outreach to communities of color is because a group that is engaged in social activism focused on equality, should form coalitions to other oppressed groups. Second is that it's difficult for me to have a "head-in-the-sand attitude towards race" because race and racism affects me every day. I'm not white. I'm a queer black woman. One who gave money to the "No on Prop 8" campaign.

From:

xthlcm.livejournal.com

(my first reply wound up in the parent, for some reason. Reposting here...)

I didn't know you were black (yay Internet!). So yeah, "head in the sand" definitely doesn't apply. My apologies for the amusingly off-target insult.

I'd still argue that the tone of your post Is Not Helpful. When you start out by trying to prove that the minority vote didn't lose us Prop 8, and imply that to believe otherwise is racist, that tends to undermine your followup argument: we really need to reach out to POC in order to reach marriage equality!

Anyway, I think we agree on what's needed to achieve what we both want. I do think, however, that you framed your point in a contradictory and inflammatory way that can have a chilling effect on that outreach.

From:

bcholmes.livejournal.com

I'm not sure if this is where you're coming from or not, but one thing that jumps to mind is that it's a very common thing for white people to have the "That's Not Helpful" reaction merely at the mention of the word 'racism'. And, well, I think that gets in the way of trying to have any conversation about the many, many ways that racism operates.

Again: no idea if that's applicable here. I'm just sayin'.

Otherwise, I appreciate the openness with which you're talking about this.

From:

sparkymonster.livejournal.com

First of all, policing someone's tone is a really common technique used to shut down discussions of racism.

Second, I wrote that post because I was absolutely furious at watching white LGBT people and allies blame people of color for Prop. 8 while totally ignoring the fact that white voters who voted "yes" were the bulk of people who voted that shit in (and who proposed it, and who funded it). This wasn't a well crafted bit of debate, but me being pissed off at getting blamed for Prop. 8 when I gave money to No on 8, I am an activist (both online and offline) and hey I'm a queer black person.

Third, you what I find inflammatory? Blaming people of color for homophobic legislation. You know I find to have a chilling affect on coalition building and outreach between LGBT people and communities of color? Blaming people of color when things go wrong.

Lastly, this isn't an intellectual debate for me. This is about people who I thought were my allies, deciding to toss me under the bus.

From:

bcholmes.livejournal.com

Wow. Good points.

Just about everything you've said on this topic has helped me appreciate, more fully, just how much work needs to happen. Thank you for that.

From:

kat-chan.livejournal.com

This conversation is why, for all of the high-minded talk of the election proving how we're "over race" down here, we're so totally not. Just because white people came out and voted for a black guy doesn't prove a damned thing. Especially in an election went the GOP should have suffered the spanking they received. Racism is still an issue here, and it still will be an issue as long as people make racist statements and then try and say they're not being racist when called on their shit.

From:

cigfran-lwyd.livejournal.com

if i may...

1) we are all permitted our righteous anger and its honest expression. there are certainly moments when intellectualization just isn't appropriate. but entering into loose statistical analyses invites a more complex response than just a chorus of "yea".

2) the anger you feel about being tossed under the bus by those you may have seen as avowed or natural allies is exactly the same furious frustration felt by (some of) those whose comments you are angry at.

3) i think that the call of "racism" is a common technique of shutting down or derailing useful discussions about race.

4) everyone needs to get this out of their systems, get heard, and get on with it.

From:

bcholmes.livejournal.com

i think that the call of "racism" is a common technique of shutting down or derailing useful discussions about race.

For the record, I disagree with that point, strongly. I think that's a reaction that white people need to get over and get over quickly.

From:

cigfran-lwyd.livejournal.com

ok, let's discuss.

clearly, racism is fully and widely operative. it is even possible that most things that are considered racist (by those with the cultural authority to make the claim) in fact are. the comments noted by the OP and yourself may indeed be racist.

but they are also more than that. and the term "racism" has a tendency, i feel, to collapse all discussion about the things in question into a big black box that is all about itself, and not at all about the things that lead into and out of it. it vastly oversimplifies perspectives, conclusions and consequences.

not to say that it is not often exactly what-it-is. and a continuing awareness of it ought to lead to observations that are less inflammatory and more measured. offering myself as an example, i am constantly self-editing in this regard, being at least as prone to heedless generalizations as anyone else, yet sufficiently well-socialized to have working re-think loops.

i have already agreed that it is inappropriate to "blame" non-whites for the passing of Prop 8. but the accusing finger of racism - which in some instances of that blaming may even be merited - raises a prohibition rather than a question.

thank you for the link pam spaulding's comments on the subject. as usual, i think she puts it all pretty near perfectly.

From:

bcholmes.livejournal.com

*nod*

I think I have a lot of things I'm inclined to say, here (and am struggling a bit with putting them all into words).

One of the points that leaps immediately to mind is a post that a friend made on Usenet regarding men and feminism. At the point my friend had made her comments, some guys (Sensitive New-Age Guys, to boot) were stating that feminist anger about sexism was the key thing that was turning them off of feminism.

My friend argued (and I agree with her) that withholding their support of feminism until feminism acts according to their terms was a form of power. That making conversations about sexism comfortable for men was, while in some sense productive, essentially an example of how the master's tools are, once again, going to help improve the master's house.

And I think I see this conversation about racism much the same way. I don't claim to have done anywhere near enough anti-racist education, but I have observed how every conversation about racism I've had with white folks has had to spend an inordinate amount of time making white folks comfortable with even the implication that there might be less-than-perfect behaviours around race.

I see many, many people have knee-jerk reactions to words like 'privilege' or 'racism' and then use that as an excuse to not take part in the conversation -- I think that opting-out behaviour exemplifies a form of white privilege that's pretty icky. And pretty invisible to the people who are wielding it.

(no subject)

From:

cigfran-lwyd.livejournal.com - Date: 2008-11-07 03:17 pm (UTC) - Expand

From:

sparkymonster.livejournal.com

How Not To Be Insane When Accused Of Racism (A Guide For White People)
http://www.amptoons.com/blog/archives/2005/12/02/how-not-to-be-insane-when-accused-of-racism/